From smoking to crackling

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fred ungewitter
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:55 pm
Location: East Central FL, USA
Country: USA
Nickname: fred
Laser Machine Make or Type: Redsail Clone
Laser Power: 60W
Laser Bed Size: 500 x 700
Home Position: TR
RDWorks Version: 8.01.18
Accessories: Chuck style rotary, 30 ma meter, home-spun office water cooler mod, muffin fan anti-condensate blower
Windows Version: Windows 7

Re: From smoking to crackling

Post by fred ungewitter » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:11 am

Dustin Hawkinson wrote:Yeah that was me, I used a screwdriver because I have electricians insulated screwdrivers and I didn't like the idea of touching the machine. I was careful to place the blade of the flat head on the button at an extreme angle so it was mostly flat and wouldn't cut. I still have the factory protective film on the buttons and I plan on doing something like Russ did when I eventually take it off to protect them from wear.
I can understand the caution. One would hope your machine has a good earthen ground as well.

I must have missed that video. What did Russ do to protect the buttons?
fred

Redsail clone 60w 700 x 500 REAL 60w Puri tube
home upper right, chuck type rotary 15000 pulse setting
RDW 8.01.18
Win7

Emblaser A3 4w diode laser
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Michael Dunning
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Location: Alabama USA

Re: From smoking to crackling

Post by Michael Dunning » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:27 am

fred ungewitter wrote:I must have missed that video. What did Russ do to protect the buttons?
He made a protective cover from some scrap acrylic and a clear box lid. It's actually the first thing I cut with my machine, or with a laser cutter for that matter. My Z/U button got a small crack even in the first few days of setup without it.

This link should take you straight to the right section:
RDWorks Learning Lab 30 Important odds & ends plus Cutting 10mm ply
EBay Chinese 60W (45W actual) laser cutter, 700x500mm, (TR)
RDWorks V8.01.18 and V8.00.27
Michael

Doug Fisher
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Re: From smoking to crackling

Post by Doug Fisher » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:33 pm

I saw that on your machine when watching your video last night. It reminded me that Russ did that in one of his videos and I planned to go find that. Thanks for saving me the time to look up the video!
80 Watt 700mm x 500mm Ke Hui KH-7050 Laser (Similar to the Red Sail),T.R.
LaSea/EFR F2 Series laser tube, RuiDa RDC6442G EC controller, 2" lens, RDWorks v8.01.18, CW 5000 chiller, Chuck type of rotary attachment
Doug

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fred ungewitter
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:55 pm
Location: East Central FL, USA
Country: USA
Nickname: fred
Laser Machine Make or Type: Redsail Clone
Laser Power: 60W
Laser Bed Size: 500 x 700
Home Position: TR
RDWorks Version: 8.01.18
Accessories: Chuck style rotary, 30 ma meter, home-spun office water cooler mod, muffin fan anti-condensate blower
Windows Version: Windows 7

Re: From smoking to crackling

Post by fred ungewitter » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:15 pm

The construction makes me wonder if a suitably sized screen protector, say for an iPad or 'droid device would reinforce the button surface without interfering with operation.
fred

Redsail clone 60w 700 x 500 REAL 60w Puri tube
home upper right, chuck type rotary 15000 pulse setting
RDW 8.01.18
Win7

Emblaser A3 4w diode laser
BCN3D Sigma Dual Extruder 3d printer
LMS Mini-mill
Cube 3rd gen 3d printer, universal filament mod
Under construction: OX CNC 1000x750 router

Michael Dunning
Posts: 42
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Location: Alabama USA

Re: From smoking to crackling

Post by Michael Dunning » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:51 pm

Worth a shot. They seem to be fairly "rigid" though, what with being meant for sticking to glass and all. I wonder if of would "conform" to the buttons properly?
EBay Chinese 60W (45W actual) laser cutter, 700x500mm, (TR)
RDWorks V8.01.18 and V8.00.27
Michael

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fred ungewitter
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:55 pm
Location: East Central FL, USA
Country: USA
Nickname: fred
Laser Machine Make or Type: Redsail Clone
Laser Power: 60W
Laser Bed Size: 500 x 700
Home Position: TR
RDWorks Version: 8.01.18
Accessories: Chuck style rotary, 30 ma meter, home-spun office water cooler mod, muffin fan anti-condensate blower
Windows Version: Windows 7

Re: From smoking to crackling

Post by fred ungewitter » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:59 pm

Yeah, I wonder the same. The sheets are supposed to be very thin tempered glass and might not survive being cut to fit. I've done only a little research and discovered that eBay listings don't include dimensions, only product lines for which the panel covers. That means I'll need to find an electronic device that has close to 100x150mm dimensions if I'm going to try it out.
fred

Redsail clone 60w 700 x 500 REAL 60w Puri tube
home upper right, chuck type rotary 15000 pulse setting
RDW 8.01.18
Win7

Emblaser A3 4w diode laser
BCN3D Sigma Dual Extruder 3d printer
LMS Mini-mill
Cube 3rd gen 3d printer, universal filament mod
Under construction: OX CNC 1000x750 router

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Gene Uselman
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Re: From smoking to crackling

Post by Gene Uselman » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:59 am

I have one here from a Samsung Galaxy (not sure what model, but I can find out) it is 70mm wide and I tried it on my button pad and it works. That said I don't think there is a reason to go to the trouble- my buttons got disreputable like Russ' and I found that the problem was a removable layer put on to protect the panel before use. I have membrane buttons that have lasted 15 years with constant use.

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fred ungewitter
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:55 pm
Location: East Central FL, USA
Country: USA
Nickname: fred
Laser Machine Make or Type: Redsail Clone
Laser Power: 60W
Laser Bed Size: 500 x 700
Home Position: TR
RDWorks Version: 8.01.18
Accessories: Chuck style rotary, 30 ma meter, home-spun office water cooler mod, muffin fan anti-condensate blower
Windows Version: Windows 7

Re: From smoking to crackling

Post by fred ungewitter » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:46 am

I've intentionally left the protective vinyl on my keypad, as I expect it will help keep the pad clean. In the past, I have had experience with keypads that crack on the circumference of the button, but those are pads that get multiple uses per day.
fred

Redsail clone 60w 700 x 500 REAL 60w Puri tube
home upper right, chuck type rotary 15000 pulse setting
RDW 8.01.18
Win7

Emblaser A3 4w diode laser
BCN3D Sigma Dual Extruder 3d printer
LMS Mini-mill
Cube 3rd gen 3d printer, universal filament mod
Under construction: OX CNC 1000x750 router

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Hans Nieborg
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Accessories: Home-Built Refrigerated Water Chiller, 3-Roller Rotary Device, Analog Ammeter, LED Strip Illumination, Crosshair Laser Pointers.
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Re: From smoking to crackling

Post by Hans Nieborg » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:20 am

Hello Fred, I'm coming in a little late here, but in looking at your pictures, there are way too many entrained air bubbles in the glass of the tube. It is possible that a couple of bubbles have lined up close enough to each other for the voltage to make its way through the glass by hopping from bubble to bubble, even though the gasses could still remain in the tube. This voltage leakage is possible due to the capacitive effect, where electricity can move 'across' an insulator that isn't thick enough to stop it. I have worked in high voltage labs using up to 150K-Volts in leakage testing, and there is no way we would even think of working with an insulator of such poor quality because we would expect it to act something like what you are experiencing.

If you have ensured the insulators on the anode and cathode are sealed properly, then I would be very curious about what I have mentioned above. Hopefully, you do get a replacement tube from the vendor, but do check the new one for bubbles in the glass as you have now. Definitely a bad thing at high voltages...
Ke Hui 7050, 60W (53W Real) & 100W (untested) 70x50cm, 2" & 2.5" FL Lenses, 6442G Controllers, RDWorks V8.01.19, Refrigerated Chiller, In-Home Install, Home = TR.
Retired Design Engineer - High Power Motor Controls. In My New Hobby-Business, I Create For Geocachers, RPG Gamers & The Cons (MegaCon, MetraCon, ComicCon).
Hans

User avatar
fred ungewitter
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:55 pm
Location: East Central FL, USA
Country: USA
Nickname: fred
Laser Machine Make or Type: Redsail Clone
Laser Power: 60W
Laser Bed Size: 500 x 700
Home Position: TR
RDWorks Version: 8.01.18
Accessories: Chuck style rotary, 30 ma meter, home-spun office water cooler mod, muffin fan anti-condensate blower
Windows Version: Windows 7

Re: From smoking to crackling

Post by fred ungewitter » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:03 pm

It's not too late to educate... That might be a fred original, but no matter.

I've removed the questionable glass tube from my machine after performing another test, ensuring I had good connectivity on the ends. Your suggestion that I ensure the insulators on the anode and cathode raises a question. The wiring is securely attached and the failure came halfway through a test job of perhaps 30 minutes total. The first portion was working well, the second ended with lightning bolts at the hv end.

I've had discussions in the past regarding high voltage, unrelated to laser cutters, but certainly relevant here. The voltages were somewhat lower but the currents many magnitudes higher. This particular team informed me, when I ignorantly questioned them about insulation, that the best insulator is dry air and distance.

Allowing for the fact that one can not easily change distance within the cabinet and at these currently levels, don't really have to worry about that, the dry air part comes into play. At the levels of these cutters, adding a silicone plug in a piece of tubing is not really going to reduce the insulation level appreciably either. Would you agree? If that's the case, then not having a silicone plug in a piece of tubing isn't going to increase the insulation level either. I suspect the silicone plug inside the tubing is more a safety feature and minor mechanical securing method than any insulation factor.

Onward from there, the problem probably originated from the excess condensation on the tube, due to strong cooling and low, infrequent power use. I might have been at 30 percent and running for too short of a time to "burn off" the condensation. I'm going to strongly suggest that burning off condensation is a poor practice as well. It wasn't in my operating philosophy and won't be.

I've added the high volume high speed muffin fan to the cabinet and during the one test I performed, a half hour of cold water produced zero condensation, while almost immediately after shutting down the anti-evap fan, I had condensation haze on the tube.

Wouldn't you allow that having a nice thick layer of water over the hv end of the tube is bad practice, and that it would permit these wonderful lightning bolts to travel to ground? I suspect it is/was the water, as the spark began at the top of the tube, near the hv contact point and traveled along the outside to ground. This explanation fits in with the perceived curvature of the spark I saw as it was zapping away during the scan process.

Of course, when the replacement tube arrives (or is it "if"?), I will take additional care to ensure that there are zero bubbles in the tube. Draining and removing the existing tube shows me that it is a simple enough process.
fred

Redsail clone 60w 700 x 500 REAL 60w Puri tube
home upper right, chuck type rotary 15000 pulse setting
RDW 8.01.18
Win7

Emblaser A3 4w diode laser
BCN3D Sigma Dual Extruder 3d printer
LMS Mini-mill
Cube 3rd gen 3d printer, universal filament mod
Under construction: OX CNC 1000x750 router

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